Bells & Circles Ft. Iggy Pop

[King of Snake]

Originally Posted by pandamagic

actually the stewardess bit didn't really register as problematic to me at all. what rubs me the wrong way is how banal iggy's rant is. like - you used to be able to smoke on a plane, and now you can't? that's it?

Well someone brought up the word "sexist" so that's what I responded to.
Anyway, of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and it's always fun to try and dissect Underworld tracks.
For me the track, or at least Iggy's part is about having fun, doing what you want, being perhaps a bit rebellious. All these things should not be alien to people immersed in dance-music culture like us Underworld fans. Hedonism and escapism was always a big part of that. He speaks about more things than just the smoking on the airplane but I actually like how he zooms in on this banal detail when he remembers having fun, feeling good back in his day, and contrasting this with perhaps today, where some of these things are no longer possible (smoking on the airplane) or at least frowned upon (hitting on a stewardess).
Obviously UW saw that too, hence the repetition of the phrases "Smoking on the airplane" and "You can't do that".

It's not like UW's lyrics don't often do the same thing. "Lager lager lager"... Karl loves to zoom in on banal little details of the world, and in the context of the music they take on different meanings. Of course where Karl's lyrics came from a darker place, at least back then, Iggy here seems to recall details of those days with some fondness.

is this supposed to be some kind of elegy for the 70s when you could be as insensitive as you wanted without repercussions? cause that's a bit suspect coming from someone famous and privileged enough to have enjoyed self-indulgence with impunity during a decade that was really shitty for a lot of other kinds of people.

Well, which part do you find "insensitive"? Smoking was not considered as bad as it is today back in the 70's. As he says in the track: "everyone was doing it". Also, I'm sure every decade has been really shitty for some group of people but what does that have to do with anything? While we are dancing our asses off to Underworld, other people in the world have nothing to eat. You, me, all of us here are priviliged in the extreme compared to most other people in the world. Are we then not supposed to enjoy our lives anymore? I'm sure Iggy worked hard for his success and fame and loads of people love his music. And he probably has had enough difficult times as well (remember Lust for Life is about fighting heroin addiction) so who are we to judge the guy's "privilige". As far as I'm concerned he can do whatever he wants to make himself feel good as long as it doesn't come at the direct detriment to other people.

and if its supposed to be self-parody of rock-star ego well then its just too subtle to register and that's entirely the fault of the creators. there's no give-away that leads us to that interpretation.

I don't think it's a self parody. I think he's genuine. He's not taking himself too seriously, but that's not the same as parody. Of course all these big rock star types turn into a bit of a parody of themselves at some point (if they survive long enough), but that's part of why people like rock stars I guess. They're supposed to be larger than life.

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

idk I'm not really bothered by Iggy's rant. I think it's supposed to be wistful and a little sad. dude has lived the ultimate rock star life and now he is reminiscing about...uh...not being able to smoke on the airplane. like the "you can't do that" part comes off to me like...no shit you can't do that!! besides hasn't Underworld's aesthetic always been a bit grimy and inconsequential? beauty in trash, etc. etc.


this track goes super hard. I'm impressed. I love a lot of what they've done these last 20 years (!!!!) but god damn, it feels good to get a proper banger again

[pandamagic]

Originally Posted by King of Snake

For me the track, or at least Iggy's part is about having fun, doing what you want, being perhaps a bit rebellious. All these things should not be alien to people immersed in dance-music culture like us Underworld fans. Hedonism and escapism was always a big part of that. He speaks about more things than just the smoking on the airplane but I actually like how he zooms in on this banal detail when he remembers having fun, feeling good back in his day, and contrasting this with perhaps today, where some of these things are no longer possible (smoking on the airplane) or at least frowned upon (hitting on a stewardess).
Obviously UW saw that too, hence the repetition of the phrases "Smoking on the airplane" and "You can't do that".

It's not like UW's lyrics don't often do the same thing. "Lager lager lager"... Karl loves to zoom in on banal little details of the world, and in the context of the music they take on different meanings. Of course where Karl's lyrics came from a darker place, at least back then, Iggy here seems to recall details of those days with some fondness.

Actually this is a fair point, so thanks. I think I'm just more likely to be charitable to Karl's vocals because I get a sense of what kind of person he is (based on interviews, previous work, etc.) and he's always come across as thoughtful & likeable. Whereas Iggy has mostly just comes across as petulant and tiresome to me. So I guess that's just my bias. I do agree though that Iggy's rant isn't entirely out of place in the Underworld universe.

Originally Posted by King of Snake

Well, which part do you find "insensitive"? Smoking was not considered as bad as it is today back in the 70's. As he says in the track: "everyone was doing it". Also, I'm sure every decade has been really shitty for some group of people but what does that have to do with anything? While we are dancing our asses off to Underworld, other people in the world have nothing to eat. You, me, all of us here are priviliged in the extreme compared to most other people in the world. Are we then not supposed to enjoy our lives anymore? I'm sure Iggy worked hard for his success and fame and loads of people love his music. And he probably has had enough difficult times as well (remember Lust for Life is about fighting heroin addiction) so who are we to judge the guy's "privilige". As far as I'm concerned he can do whatever he wants to make himself feel good as long as it doesn't come at the direct detriment to other people.

I don't think it's a self parody. I think he's genuine. He's not taking himself too seriously, but that's not the same as parody. Of course all these big rock star types turn into a bit of a parody of themselves at some point (if they survive long enough), but that's part of why people like rock stars I guess. They're supposed to be larger than life.

I suppose I raise an eyebrow any time anyone gets a little misty-eyed about more "permissive" decades of the recent past. Like, didn't Mad Men teach us anything? Sure the furniture was cool but a lot of the rest of it was pretty gross. I'm old enough (though, not as old as Iggy) to remember when you could smoke everywhere and it was pretty fucking awful. I've also lost a couple of family members to lung cancer so I guess that's another personal bias. And before you go "wow you sound fun" remember that this is an Underworld forum so I guess I'm at least fun enough to like dance music. So there's that.

Anyway, thanks for your feedback. It's made me reconsider the track a little bit, though I'll probably just end up relegating it to the slowly growing list of "Underworld and Underworld adjacent tracks I never listen to" along with "The First Note Is Silent" and some of the 2012 Olympic stuff . . .

[dubman]

i think the iggy rant can live despite it coming from someone who's used to and proud of their sense of entitlement, because it successfully pulls off describing a whole perspective out of smaller parts. these are paper scraps and cig butts, what should be embarrassing metal globs of words, that somehow amount to crystallizing a much larger idea of How It Works. who's getting pranked on (in a lighter and much darker sense) vs who doing it. his idea of our ecosystem of beliefs. his ethos that emerged out of... whatever life he's lived over several decades. i'm not sure how valuable that is really ("salty white rock star muddles through their own brain to find some discontent" does not deserve to be interesting tbh), but we have a complete painting, done well, and i hope he finds someone who'll smack him on the back of the head at unexpected intervals on an ongoing basis.


i don't think i'm gonna listen to it too much though.

[dubman]

Originally Posted by potatobroth

Nah. It would feel even more wrong of Karl sang it. Banging drums with awkward lyrics layered on.

i mean....


this is how a lot of underworld 'moments' happen though. the difference is that iggy uses the stream to complain and declare like a jackass, whereas karl finds his high in transcendent ambiguity, which is way classier but no less immune from being totally awkward if he doesn't stick the landing.
if iggy had excised about 33% of this rant we'd probably get something really vivid and affecting, but then it wouldn't really be iggy probably.

[dubman]

Originally Posted by King of Snake

As far as I'm concerned he can do whatever he wants to make himself feel good as long as it doesn't come at the direct detriment to other people.

isn't this exactly what he's implying?
like right on the line at the beginning.

"i'd get my finger into everything i wanted"
this natural sense that any space is his to cheerfully fuck with, his blithe right to invade anything he wants is instantly obnoxious.

his self-aggrandizing "i shouldn't have wings because of what people say about ethics i guess", because he'd do things that go against wimpy european ideas of right and wrong. that sounds pretty strongly like he believes that you're either the one doing it or the one it's being done to.



he'd have fun according to the rules of "the jungle", which will come, because the revolution won't happen. what's coming is a civilization full of atavistic degenerates, who will still ban smoking on flights, which will be hijacked by criminals running a "pretty good business." he de facto knows the rules of this jungle better then people who don't smoke.



nevermind that the jungle would brain him with a rock and sell his drug-infused bone marrow on ebay if it could, big rebel.

[jetpig]

The waitress part still comes off as somewhat creeper to me. It's furthered by his desire to have had the waitress instead of the cocaine as though each is a thing for him to have. I then can't disconnect the "you can't do that" from the waitress section, which doesn't help the image.


On the other hand, every female subject of Karl's lyrics comes across as a full and beautiful human being, save for perhaps, "the most blonde I ever met." I feel an earnest affection from Karl's portrayals as opposed to a self centered lust. Slummin it for the weekend is the best example of this.

I understand all the various contexts of the song and the lyrics and the writers, and at the end of the day, I just prefer Karl's writing and framing to Iggy's, I guess.

I appreciate that this band has put out a song that has sparked such legitimate discussion. I also appreciate that this forum keeps it civil.

Also it's a banging track and Karl/Esme's vocals are A1, top shelf, Underworld magic.

[King of Snake]

Originally Posted by pandamagic

Actually this is a fair point, so thanks. I think I'm just more likely to be charitable to Karl's vocals because I get a sense of what kind of person he is (based on interviews, previous work, etc.) and he's always come across as thoughtful & likeable. Whereas Iggy has mostly just comes across as petulant and tiresome to me. So I guess that's just my bias. I do agree though that Iggy's rant isn't entirely out of place in the Underworld universe.

Sure I get that. I'm certainly more familiar with Karl as a person (insofar as that's possible without personally knowing him) than Iggy Pop, who I only know as... well.. Iggy Pop the rock star. And perhaps the heroin addict.

I suppose I raise an eyebrow any time anyone gets a little misty-eyed about more "permissive" decades of the recent past. Like, didn't Mad Men teach us anything? Sure the furniture was cool but a lot of the rest of it was pretty gross. I'm old enough (though, not as old as Iggy) to remember when you could smoke everywhere and it was pretty fucking awful. I've also lost a couple of family members to lung cancer so I guess that's another personal bias. And before you go "wow you sound fun" remember that this is an Underworld forum so I guess I'm at least fun enough to like dance music. So there's that.

Oh I'm totally with you that smoking everywhere was awful. Bars, restaurants, trains... especially on an airplane, it sounds absolutely horrible! And I've also seen an uncle and an acquaintance die from lung cancer so again, totally 100% with you that smoking is awful. Cocaine use, same thing. Another person I knew was a heavy cocaine user and committed suicide last year leaving behind a wife and two kids. Pretty tragic.

But at the same time for many people these things have at some point been sources of "fun" and enjoyment. Most if not all people have had some rebellious phase. I used to be a smoker until about 7-8 years ago (so happy I quit) and I've used various drugs including cocaine. When I was younger it was part of the scene and I was impressionable. Not every cocaine user commits suicide, not everyone who enjoys a beer becomes an alcoholic. Certainly Iggy pop has over-indulged in some of these things during his life but I'm not really hearing this so much as a celebration of over-indulgence to be followed, but just his personal experience.

Anyway, thanks for your feedback. It's made me reconsider the track a little bit, though I'll probably just end up relegating it to the slowly growing list of "Underworld and Underworld adjacent tracks I never listen to" along with "The First Note Is Silent" and some of the 2012 Olympic stuff . . .

Thanks for responding. I do get where you're coming from and it is not my intention to change anyone's opinion of the song, but I think it's open for different interpretations (as usual).

[King of Snake]

Originally Posted by jetpig

The waitress part still comes off as somewhat creeper to me. It's furthered by his desire to have had the waitress instead of the cocaine as though each is a thing for him to have. I then can't disconnect the "you can't do that" from the waitress section, which doesn't help the image.

Well the stewardes (not waitress) did give him her phone number (if we take his story for truth) willingly so there seems to be mutual consent there. It's not like he was thinking of "having her" against her will right?
Self centered lust may not be the most beautiful or poetic of human emotions, but it is human and normal for everyone to have from time to time.

[King of Snake]

Originally Posted by dubman

isn't this exactly what he's implying?
like right on the line at the beginning.

"i'd get my finger into everything i wanted"
this natural sense that any space is his to cheerfully fuck with, his blithe right to invade anything he wants is instantly obnoxious.


his self-aggrandizing "i shouldn't have wings because of what people say about ethics i guess", because he'd do things that go against wimpy european ideas of right and wrong. that sounds pretty strongly like he believes that you're either the one doing it or the one it's being done to.

he'd have fun according to the rules of "the jungle", which will come, because the revolution won't happen. what's coming is a civilization full of atavistic degenerates, who will still ban smoking on flights, which will be hijacked by criminals running a "pretty good business." he de facto knows the rules of this jungle better then people who don't smoke.

nevermind that the jungle would brain him with a rock and sell his drug-infused bone marrow on ebay if it could, big rebel.

Well I think you're making it sound worse than it's intended. Again, I think it should be considered more tongue-in-cheek. He's perhaps speculating on what he would do if unrestrained. He's not saying that's objectively good or moral.
It sounds like you're reading "get his finger in everything" as something sexual and invading, again implying against someone else's will. "Having your finger in (every pie)" also just means being involved, and influencing in many different things. He's just being honest about himself, it sounds like he knows he's someone who would, unrestrained, indulge in many vices. He has done that. Surely he also knows the dark side of this, which could be to the detriment of himself and others. He's already fought heroin addiction, he's had the messed up life. He's 70 now. He doesn't smoke, he does tai-chi, and lives happily with his wife in Miami. His idea of a wild time is going to the beach and to "have dinner with my wife somewhere with low lighting where we can sit close to each other."