what do y'all think? (the atheism thread)

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by froopy seal

Which is, of course, one of the most brilliant components in the invention of the concept of god-like beings.

i don't regard it as a concept and i think it's misguided to call it a concept, but nonetheless. in practicality, though, think about it: if everyone had proof G-d existed, no one would be afraid to die, everyone would be asking him for everything, and life would be utterly pointless.

[froopy seal]

Originally Posted by Deckard

The killer feature.

If only I were able to code that into an app...

[BrotherLovesDub]

Religion is for the weak. God doesn't exist.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

i don't regard it as a concept and i think it's misguided to call it a concept, but nonetheless. in practicality, though, think about it: if everyone had proof G-d existed, no one would be afraid to die, everyone would be asking him for everything, and life would be utterly pointless.

I would think people might still be uneasy about whether they'd be going to heaven or hell, no?

And could you expand on why you feel that "life would be utterly pointless" if everyone had proof that God existed?

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by Sean

I would think people might still be uneasy about whether they'd be going to heaven or hell, no?

And could you expand on why you feel that "life would be utterly pointless" if everyone had proof that God existed?

well, i'm jewish, i don't really believe in hell. the general consensus among jews is that virtually everyone goes to gehenna, which is sort of like a temporary hell, so that they can learn all the things they did to people during their lives and learn from their mistakes. afterwards several things can happen, one of which is reincarnation and the other is going to heaven.

i think if everyone knew G-d existed, the purpose of this life, which is to learn right from wrong and to help other people, and whatnot, our values would be totally different. if everyone knew there was a G-d, they would say, "why doesn't he help the poor/sick/etc.?" or "it doesn't matter, i'm going to live forever anyway". all questions, inquiries, conflict, etc. would all be directed towards G-d to get him to solve all of our problems, and we wouldn't learn anything from each other or have any purpose in anything you do— why work all your life, find a husband/wife, become president, anything when you know that what awaits you afterwards is going to be better and in comparison this life is pointless?

but of course, this life isn't pointless— but some people have reached that extreme even without absolute proof. for example, the extremist muslims in al qaeda believe that suicide bombing is okay because they're all going to heaven and they do not value human life because of this view.

[froopy seal]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

i think if everyone knew G-d existed, the purpose of this life, which is to learn right from wrong and to help other people, and whatnot, our values would be totally different.

I think every human more or less knows what's right and what's wrong. We're just too lazy and egoistic to follow that knowledge. The odd sadist or egocentric might even find enjoyment in doing the opposite of what is considered appropriate.

Originally Posted by bryantm3

if everyone knew there was a G-d, they would say, "why doesn't he help the poor/sick/etc.?" or "it doesn't matter, i'm going to live forever anyway". all questions, inquiries, conflict, etc. would all be directed towards G-d to get him to solve all of our problems, and we wouldn't learn anything from each other or have any purpose in anything you do— why work all your life, find a husband/wife, become president, anything when you know that what awaits you afterwards is going to be better and in comparison this life is pointless?

If we had proof of god-like beings and heavenly afterlife, and if your assumptions of the results were correct, wouldn't it be the easiest and holiest path to kill yourself once you were enlightened and sufficiently brave? Consequently, we wouldn't have to worry about pointless lives down here on Earth for long.

Originally Posted by bryantm3

but of course, this life isn't pointless— but some people have reached that extreme even without absolute proof. for example, the extremist muslims in al qaeda believe that suicide bombing is okay because they're all going to heaven and they do not value human life because of this view.

I've always wondered if anyone could be that much of a believer. I mean, all this stuff about martyrdom, eternal life, a bunch of eager-to-please virgins etc. - just for blowing yourself to pieces, accompanied by the correct, sacred state of mind? I suspect there are more mundane motives behind this extremism, such as desperation, hate, or blindly following megalomaniac, charismatic, evil nutheads.

(Please excuse the heavy use of clichees.)

[Sean]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

i think if everyone knew G-d existed, the purpose of this life, which is to learn right from wrong and to help other people, and whatnot, our values would be totally different. if everyone knew there was a G-d, they would say, "why doesn't he help the poor/sick/etc.?" or "it doesn't matter, i'm going to live forever anyway". all questions, inquiries, conflict, etc. would all be directed towards G-d to get him to solve all of our problems, and we wouldn't learn anything from each other or have any purpose in anything you do— why work all your life, find a husband/wife, become president, anything when you know that what awaits you afterwards is going to be better and in comparison this life is pointless?

I guess my biggest question in response to this would be if faith in a god as it currently exists shares similar shortcomings. As you pointed out, there are suicide bombers who kill themselves and others because they're certain based on their faith that they'll be off to an afterlife filled with virgins. There are Christians who already ask why God doesn't help the poor/sick/etc. There are countless people who depend on prayer to solve their problems, and who attribute their successes and failures to God's response to their prayers. And how do people with extremely strong convictions about their faith today motivate themselves to do anything when the promise of the afterlife is so much better than their mortal life?

In short, what you described is a partial list of problems that I already have with religion in general, even when it's based on faith and not conclusive knowledge. I'm a little confused as to how these would be significant problems with conclusive evidence of God, but they're not problems now even though they already exist based on faith.

[Andrea]

Afetrlife? Is there a beforelife too? What is the meaning with the real life if the meaning is to live it before or after? I don´t understand...

[myrrh]

This a very long and interesting thread. The one thing about it is that when these kinds of discussions ensue there usually is no clear definition of the concept of God. So, everyone reading this can have their own idea of this concept and it be different to everyone elses.

Therefor you can have people saying that they don't beleive in God, but that is based on a Biblical/Christian definition of God. And I have found most atheists come from this type of background. It seems that most people who denounce the concept of God come from Europe or the US, and these were the heartlands of Christianity.

So, perhaps, that speaks more about the religion of Christianity and how it defines God, rather than the existence of God in a general stance.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by myrrh

This a very long and interesting thread. The one thing about it is that when these kinds of discussions ensue there usually is no clear definition of the concept of God. So, everyone reading this can have their own idea of this concept and it be different to everyone elses.

Therefor you can have people saying that they don't beleive in God, but that is based on a Biblical/Christian definition of God. And I have found most atheists come from this type of background. It seems that most people who denounce the concept of God come from Europe or the US, and these were the heartlands of Christianity.

So, perhaps, that speaks more about the religion of Christianity and how it defines God, rather than the existence of God in a general stance.

that was sort of my whole point in discussing it with the person i did at the beginning of the thread. christianity draws a lot from roman/greek mythology in that there is a lack of forgiveness at the end of life, and everyone who doesn't do what G-d wants will go to hell and have no second chance, burn for eternity, etc. and it paints G-d as an unforgiving character. that's kind of how i see christianity, it's not really judaism plus jesus, it's more than that— and i think it's mostly to do with the theologists that came after jesus such as paul and many of the european theologists, they took judaism, put jesus in, and then added an evil anti-G-d (satan) to kind of push everyone into doing what they wanted, and proclaimed that G-d was a non-forgiving character who would send you to hell if you didn't exactly do everything the catholic church proscribed.